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Tim Ferriss · 2023-08-17 · 2h 14m

Proven Tactics to Become Creative, How to Take the Path Less Traveled, and More | Justin Gary

Magic champion turned game designer Justin Gary on creativity as process, testing assumptions, fear-setting, and building games and companies.

Proven Tactics to Become Creative, How to Take the Path Less Traveled, and More | Justin Gary
The guest

Justin Gary — Former Magic: The Gathering U.S. National and World champion turned game designer; founder of Stone Blade Entertainment, creator of Ascension, SolForge, Bakugan, and Bad Beets, and host of the Think Like a Game Designer podcast.

The gist

Justin Gary traces his path from competitive laser tag and high school debate to winning the Magic: The Gathering U.S. National Championship at 17 and later the team World Championship, then walking away from NYU Law to design games. He breaks down his six-step 'core design loop' for creativity, the discipline of surfacing and inverting assumptions, and why ugly, fast prototypes beat polished ones. He shares the launch of Ascension, the near-bankruptcy of the digital game SolForge, and what he learned about risk, pricing, playtesting, and choosing the right game to play. Tim Ferriss connects many of these ideas to fear-setting, testing publishing assumptions, and his own trade-show and book-feedback experiences.

Big reveals

  • Gary won the U.S. National Championship at 17 after running a tournament at his local game store to fund a plane ticket to Columbus and sleeping on a friend's floor, because his parents couldn't afford debate camp that summer.
  • He realized 'there's nothing that differentiates a creative person from a not-creative person other than process,' which led him to develop the six-step core design loop: inspiring, framing, brainstorming, prototyping, testing, iterating.
  • Once a quarter his company runs an 'assumptions challenging exercise' where everyone writes down every assumption, then asks 'what if that weren't true?' — an inversion that revealed turning SolForge from digital back into a physical card game (SolForge Fusion).
  • Pitching the World of Warcraft miniatures project to Upper Deck executives, he realized 'nobody knows what they're doing' — the difference between a leader and everyone else is just being willing to make assertions and own the consequences.
  • That realization, combined with Tim's fear-setting and dream-lining exercises, led him to save a year of expenses, quit, and start his own company.
  • After Ascension sold out at Gen Con, a major gaming company offered to buy the whole game out with royalties; Gary said no to keep ownership of his IP, which now has over 16 standalone expansions.
  • SolForge was crowdfunded at a $250K target, raised ~$500K, but actually cost $3 million to make — Gary overextended, borrowed against Ascension and his parents' house, and nearly went bankrupt before digging out.
  • He survived the SolForge collapse by doing a 'reverse' fear-setting exercise: accepting he had lost everything first, then negotiating debts, payment plans, layoffs, and contract work to recover.

Things worth remembering

  • At the peak of the Magic Pro Tour (roughly 1997-2003), first place at a major tournament paid around $30,000, and Gary made about $80,000 a year, paying his way through college.
  • Gary teaches that games satisfy five core needs: immersion, connection, aspiration, growth, and expression — and Magic hits all of them.
  • On balance, he argues not every card must be equal; the real rule is that no single strategy should be unbeatable, using Rock-Paper-Scissors as the ideal model.
  • He credits the book 'A Whack on the Side of the Head' for demystifying creativity, including the exercise of opening a random book to a random word and journaling on how it relates to your problem.
  • His brainstorming method, drawn from Wharton research, uses three 20-minute phases: open exploring (never let your pen stop for 10 seconds), organizing, and elimination.
  • Gary's favorite brainstorming tool is the free nested-list app Workflowy, valued for being infinite and fast — he avoids small paper because a full page subconsciously tells his brain to stop.
  • Tim describes the writer's trap of comparing your ugly rough draft to other people's invisible-to-you final drafts.
  • Gary set his consulting rates by doubling his quote each time until a client showed resistance instead of laughing and instantly agreeing.
  • He coined 'TTP' — time to penis — as a game design metric: any time you let people customize, someone will eventually draw a penis.
  • Game economics: a game's cost must be about one-fifth of retail; manufacturers sell to distributors at ~60% off retail, distributors to retailers at ~50% off, and designer royalties run roughly 6-12% (as low as 2-3% for mass-market).

Recommended in this episode

Books, products and media the guest or host genuinely endorsed here — with the buy link.

Affiliate link — we may earn a commission at no extra cost to you.

Guest’s ownMedia

Think Like a Game Designer

Justin Gary

“listening to at least one, maybe two interviews with Richard on your podcast, Think Like a Game Designer” — Tim Ferriss 00:21:06
Find it on Amazon
RecommendedBook

A Whack on the Side of the Head

Roger von Oech (inferred)

“I read some great books on creativity, A Whack on the Side of the Head is one I'd recommend.” — Justin Gary 00:37:59
Find it on Amazon
RecommendedProduct

Workflowy

WorkFlowy (inferred)

“I am a huge fan of, in particular, an app called Workflowy. And it's a totally free app, and it's basically a series of nested lists.” — Justin Gary 00:55:06
Find it on Amazon
Guest’s ownProduct

Ascension

Stone Blade Entertainment (inferred)

“one of the games I'm most well known for is a deck-building game called Ascension. Been around for 13 years.” — Justin Gary 00:58:48
Find it on Amazon
RecommendedProduct

Dominion

Rio Grande Games (inferred)

“there was another deck-building game called Dominion, which was released. It was the first of its category. And I fell in love with that game.” — Justin Gary 00:59:18
Find it on Amazon
Guest’s ownProduct

World of Warcraft Miniatures Game

Upper Deck (inferred)

“I had an opportunity to lead a project that was the World of Warcraft miniatures game.” — Justin Gary 01:05:12
Find it on Amazon
Guest’s ownBook

The 4-Hour Workweek

Tim Ferriss

“this is where I first read The 4-Hour Workweek, so this is actually was super impactful for me in being very efficient using 80/20 principles” — Justin Gary 01:07:18
Find it on Amazon
Guest’s ownProduct

SolForge

Stone Blade Entertainment (inferred)

“I made this game called SolForge with Richard Garfield, the guy that created Magic. And we did this over a decade ago, and we made it as a digital trading card game.” — Justin Gary 00:45:16
Find it on Amazon
Guest’s ownProduct

SolForge Fusion

Stone Blade Entertainment (inferred)

“the new version of SolForge, called SolForge Fusion, is now a physical card game that has this new technology built into it” — Justin Gary 00:45:30
Find it on Amazon
Guest’s ownProduct

Bad Beets

Stone Blade Entertainment (inferred)

“I had a game I launched years later called Bad Beets, B-E-E-T-S. It's a kind of play on the poker term of bad beats” — Justin Gary 01:30:09
Find it on Amazon
Guest’s ownProduct

Bakugan

Spin Master

“I make a game called Bakugan, which is a toy-based game for kids” — Justin Gary 01:23:16
Find it on Amazon
Guest’s ownProduct

Ascension Tactics

Stone Blade Entertainment (inferred)

“We made Ascension Tactics, which is an Ascension miniatures game, which we did another expansion to that.” — Justin Gary 01:47:46
Find it on Amazon
Guest’s ownProduct

The Level Up Journal

Justin Gary

“I have a thing, The Level Up Journal, which I've made, which I've got, it just has a journal that just fits in your pocket” — Justin Gary 02:00:37
Find it on Amazon
RecommendedProduct

Discord

Discord (inferred)

“the nice thing about Discord is, one, it's very easy to use, you can just start up a channel for free, you can have voice chat and text chat” — Justin Gary 02:04:21
Find it on Amazon