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Tim Ferriss · 2024-06-27 · 2h 14m

Neil Gaiman and Debbie Millman - The Tim Ferriss Show

Tim Ferriss combo episode pairs Neil Gaiman on writing discipline with Debbie Millman on rejection, design, and her life-changing 10-year plan exercise.

Neil Gaiman and Debbie Millman - The Tim Ferriss Show
The guest

Neil Gaiman and Debbie Millman — Neil Gaiman is a bestselling author of books, graphic novels, and TV including Coraline, The Graveyard Book, and The Sandman; Debbie Millman is a designer, host of the Design Matters podcast, chair of SVA's Masters in Branding program, and editorial director of Print magazine.

The gist

This is a 'super combo' anniversary episode marking the Tim Ferriss Show's 10th year and 1 billion downloads, pairing two favorite past guests. Neil Gaiman discusses his writing rules and rituals, including the rule that he may do nothing but is not allowed to do anything other than write, his fountain-pen first drafts, and lessons from Terry Pratchett. Debbie Millman shares how a pattern of being deeply wounded by early rejection shaped her path, recounting the 2003 'Speak Up' blog attack that called her a 'she devil' and ultimately became the catalyst for her entire career. She also describes surviving childhood abuse and how therapy and her work with the Joyful Heart Foundation helped her integrate it. The episode closes with Millman teaching Milton Glaser's '10-year plan for a remarkable life' visualization exercise.

Big reveals

  • Gaiman reveals that Ian Fleming, not Roald Dahl, plotted two of Dahl's most famous short story twists, including 'Lamb to the Slaughter' where a woman kills her husband with a frozen leg of lamb and feeds it to the detective.
  • Gaiman's biggest writing rule: at his desk he is allowed to do absolutely nothing or to write, but he is not allowed to do anything else, no crosswords, books, or phone calls.
  • Millman's core advice to graduates: identify the one most important thing to you, because she admits she lied to herself for decades that she became a designer for financial security when really it was just her overwhelming desire to live in Manhattan.
  • Millman reveals she survived roughly 18 years of abuse, including a physically and sexually abusive stepfather, five rejections from her own father, and constant terror that shaped her lifelong need for security.
  • Millman explains that the May 2003 Speak Up blog attack, which she initially saw as the lowest point of her career, became the catalyst upon which everything else in her career was built.
  • Millman recounts Milton Glaser's summer class exercise of envisioning your future life as if you would succeed at everything you wanted; her 2005 essay's far-fetched goals have almost all come true 12 years later.
  • Millman reveals she turned down the CEO job at Sterling Brands after agonizing four months, realizing hard decisions are only hard while you're making them and that most people live in a false world of scarcity.

Things worth remembering

  • Ian Fleming wrote each James Bond novel in two weeks by checking into an unpleasant hotel room he didn't want to explore, forcing himself to write.
  • Gaiman writes first drafts in fountain pen using two different colored inks so he can see at a glance how much he wrote each day.
  • Gaiman observed that when writers moved from typewriters to computers, story submissions ballooned from about 3,000 words to 6,000-9,000 words without more actual story, because adding text on a computer doesn't feel like work.
  • Gaiman tells young writers that anything you do can be fixed, but what you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page.
  • Gaiman says the biggest thing he learned from Terry Pratchett was a willingness to go forward without knowing what happens next.
  • New York's Fountain Pen Hospital is a real place that sells, reconditions, and looks after fountain pens; Gaiman recommends Lamy Safari pens for beginners.
  • The Joyful Heart Foundation, founded by Mariska Hargitay, works to end the backlog of hundreds of thousands of untested rape kits sitting in police departments.
  • Millman has written for every issue of Print magazine since her first piece and was later appointed its editorial and creative director.
  • Quoting writer Dani Shapiro, Millman argues courage matters more than confidence, since confidence only comes from repeated successful attempts that require courage to begin.
  • Naval Ravikant told his brother Kamal: 'If I always did what I was qualified to do I would be pushing a broom somewhere.'

Recommended in this episode

Books, products and media the guest or host genuinely endorsed here — with the buy link.

Affiliate link — we may earn a commission at no extra cost to you.

Guest’s ownBook

The 4-Hour Body

Tim Ferriss

“I actually recommended ag1 in my 2010 best seller more than a decade ago the 4-Hour Body” — Tim Ferriss 00:00:00
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Neverwhere

Neil Gaiman

“creator of books graphic novels short stories film and television for all ages including neverware Coraline the graveyard book” — Tim Ferriss 00:06:15
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Coraline

Neil Gaiman

“for all ages including neverware Coraline the graveyard book the ocean at the end of the lane” — Tim Ferriss 00:06:15
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Guest’s ownBook

The Graveyard Book

Neil Gaiman

“for all ages including neverware Coraline the graveyard book the ocean at the end of the lane” — Tim Ferriss 00:06:15
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The Ocean at the End of the Lane

Neil Gaiman

“Coraline the graveyard book the ocean at the end of the lane the view from the cheap seats” — Tim Ferriss 00:06:15
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The View from the Cheap Seats

Neil Gaiman

“the graveyard book the ocean at the end of the lane the view from the cheap seats and the Sandman series” — Tim Ferriss 00:06:15
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Guest’s ownBook

The Sandman

Neil Gaiman

“the ocean at the end of the lane the view from the cheap seats and the Sandman series of graphic novels” — Tim Ferriss 00:06:15
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Guest’s ownBook

Stardust

Neil Gaiman

“those were the ones I wrote Stardust and American Gods in sort of big size but they weren't terribly portable” — Neil Gaiman 00:17:42
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Guest’s ownBook

American Gods

Neil Gaiman

“those were the ones I wrote Stardust and American Gods in sort of big size but they weren't terribly portable” — Neil Gaiman 00:17:42
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Guest’s ownBook

Good Omens

Neil Gaiman

“so the joy of good Omens really I mean the best thing about good Omens was having Terry pret as an audience” — Neil Gaiman 00:29:21
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RecommendedProduct

Leuchtturm notebooks

Leuchtturm1917 (inferred)

“my usual notebook right now is a loor because I really like the way you comp paginate stuff in them and the thickness of the paper” — Neil Gaiman 00:18:16
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RecommendedProduct

Lamy Safari fountain pen

Lamy

“I will Point them at Lamy l y who have fabulous starter pens and they're not very expensive and they're good they do a pen called the Safari” — Neil Gaiman 00:22:29
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Fountain Pen Hospital

“go somewhere like New York's Fountain Pen Hospital is that a real place it's a real place they have it's called The Fountain Pen Hospital” — Neil Gaiman 00:21:59
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The Four-Hour Work Week

Tim Ferriss

“when I sent an early manuscript of the 4-Hour Work Week to this person via email and the response was effectively thanks but sorry don't have time to read this” — Tim Ferriss 00:56:40
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Guest’s ownBook

How to Think Like a Great Graphic Designer

Debbie Millman

“a book that he had turned down they had wanted him to write with the horrific title how to think like a great graphic designer” — Debbie Millman 01:41:52
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RecommendedMedia

Design Matters podcast

Debbie Millman

“I certainly recommend everyone check out design matters but I want to talk about some of your decisions” — Tim Ferriss 01:46:33
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Design Matters with Debbie Millman: Chris Ware

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“I would suggest that they start with Chris wear he is an extraordinary graphic novelist it's one of the most favorite episodes that I've ever conducted” — Debbie Millman 02:07:35
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Design Matters with Debbie Millman: Amanda Palmer

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Design Matters with Debbie Millman: Alain de Botton

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Design Matters with Debbie Millman: Krista Tippett

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“my episode with Alan Debon my episode with Christa tippet niik mly the great composer those are all episodes in the last year that I'm most proud of” — Debbie Millman 02:07:35
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