The guest
Douglas Murray — British author and journalist who has reported firsthand from the front lines in Ukraine and Israel. He wrote The War on the West, The Madness of Crowds, and the new book On Democracies and Death Cults.
The gist
Lex Fridman talks with Douglas Murray about the wars in Ukraine and in Israel/Gaza, drawing on Murray's firsthand reporting from both fronts. They examine Putin's motives, the Trump-Zelenskyy Oval Office blowup, and the difficulty of negotiating peace from positions of strength. Murray then gives a detailed account of October 7th, the nature and corruption of Hamas, Israel's response, and Benjamin Netanyahu. The conversation closes on the roots of antisemitism, Iran's regime, how to interview world leaders, and what gives Murray hope.
Big reveals
- Murray reveals he was in a Ukrainian dugout at the front lines watching the Trump-Zelenskyy blowup happen, and was earlier with Ukrainian forces when they retook Kherson in late 2022.
- He says it's thought around 20,000 Ukrainian children have been stolen by Russia, partly via summer camps the children never returned from, and argues Ukraine downplayed it because the children were effectively hostages and bargaining chips.
- Murray claims the October 7th plan was for Hezbollah to carry out identical massacres from the north and meet Hamas in the middle to cut Israel in two, but Hamas didn't trust its communication lines to Hezbollah to be un-intercepted.
- He states every Hamas leader who has died did so a billionaire, and that they militarized all of Gaza with weapons in every second or third house rather than building a thriving Palestinian state.
- Murray argues Netanyahu is not evil, and that people's eagerness to call the Israeli PM evil while being reluctant to call Hamas evil is itself telling.
- He champions Vasily Grossman's insight from Life and Fate that antisemitism is a mirror: 'tell me what you accuse the Jews of and I'll tell you what you're guilty of.'
- Murray notes there was not one protest against Hamas in New York after October 7th, but protests against Israel appeared in Times Square on October 8th while the attacks were still ongoing.
- He calls the 1979 flight bringing Ayatollah Khomeini from Paris to Tehran one of the two worst journeys of the 20th century, the other being Lenin's train to Petrograd.
Things worth remembering
- Murray uses the line about 'the necessity of people who live too long online to try to wade their way out of the memes' to describe online political tribalism.
- He recounts a London debate where historian Andrew Roberts cut through endless argument about WWII's origins by simply saying 'World War II began because Hitler invaded Poland.'
- Murray cites Norman Angell's pre-WWI bestseller arguing European war was economically unviable, noting it had to be reissued and rewritten after World War I.
- He recounts that Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar had a brain tumor removed by Israeli doctors while imprisoned, and told a dentist 'one day you'll be weak and then I'll come.'
- The Hamas charter quotes a hadith that the end times won't come until the rocks and trees call out for Muslims to kill the Jews hiding behind them.
- Murray extrapolates that October 7th in American terms would equal roughly 44,000 killed and 10,000 taken hostage in a single day.
- He says Gaza's population has nearly doubled since Israel's 2005 withdrawal, undercutting frivolous genocide claims.
- Murray notes polls last month (during Netanyahu's Washington visit) showed Netanyahu at an all-time high, despite claims he's increasingly unpopular.
- He cites Israel destroying the entirety of the Syrian air force in a day after Assad's regime fell as only the fourth story on the BBC news website.
- Murray references Churchill's magnanimous 1940 eulogy for Neville Chamberlain, in which Churchill said the only guide to a man is his conscience and 'you march always in the ranks of honor.'
Recommended in this episode
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Guest’s ownBook
The War on the West
Douglas Murray
“The following is a conversation with Douglas Murray, author of The War in the West, The Madness of Crowds, and his new” — Lex Fridman 00:00:00Find it on Amazon
Guest’s ownBook
The Madness of Crowds
Douglas Murray
“author of The War in the West, The Madness of Crowds, and his new book on democracies and death cults” — Lex Fridman 00:00:00Find it on Amazon
Guest’s ownBook
On Democracies and Death Cults
Douglas Murray
“book on democracies and death cults. We talk about Russia and Ukraine and about Israel and Gaza.” — Lex Fridman 00:00:32Find it on Amazon
RecommendedBook
Life and Fate
Vasily Grossman
“one of my great heroes Vasley Gman says at the center of life and fate almost everything that is worth saying about anti-semitism” — Douglas Murray 02:17:32Find it on Amazon